Custom Markup: Usage Notes & Queries

[TiddlyTweeter]

In this thread I will give my recent experience of using @pmario's Custom Markup plugin. I will also ask a few questions about its behavior.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Default Markup Glyph Behaviours

[pmario]

Would be nice. I can probably add it to the docs

[AnthonyMuscio]

TT, Please update this table to the latest version, and mario can place it on https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/custom-markup

I am struggling on my return to this project to see the defaults and from where to diverge from those defaults. This table and perhaps a verbal explanation of the structure within the glyph defaults will go a long way helping the use of customise. Be it the first time, or returning from a break. In many ways scope and end is the same thing, or is it?

Mario I understand where wltc comes from, and I expect it roles of your tongue (if not mine) but to assist learning perhaps a cm- for "custom mark-up" would be easier to use, Otherwise please put you brand everywhere you want except perhaps if it complicates code.

Tony

[AnthonyMuscio]

If I try and set some simple use cases, rather than the advanced ones I put forward earlier, I find I cant do what I want. Perhaps there are some oversights, or these have being lost over time, I also suspect Mario's fondness of inserting blank lines eg <lf><lf> is leaving some of the Advances I expected behind.

At the moment it seems hard to grasp the systemic patterns, making it even harder for me to provide a clear definition of what is not working for be as I also have systematic concepts I am trying to share.

What systemic patterns?

• why use one glyph over another?
• must one have a blank line before a glyph(ed line) including subsequent ones?
• what about simply adding an existing class to a line with no other manipulations or dependencies and honouring the LF
• which respond to LF rather than LF/LF? (The above table helps but not for » and ≈

Note: here I am being the Naive enquirer

Regards
Tony

[TiddlyTweeter]

@AnthonyMuscio I am struggling on my return to this project to see the defaults

Right. The project has evolved a lot. In many good ways.

I will update, again, the image above to reflect my current understanding. After a day more of testing of the latest parameter passing changes.

[pmario]

@AnthonyMuscio ... I did respond here: #62 (comment)

[TiddlyTweeter]

Generalise The Example For Details?

The Customize the Details Element was really useful to read and play with.

By trial and error I realized you can apply the same method to many cases! For instance I used the same method to create a Figure with a Figcaption (it doesn't look beautiful, good CSS later, but it works as a proof) ...

\customize degree="FIGURE" _element="figure" _classes="" _endString="/FIGURE" _mode=block  
\customize degree="FC" _element="figcaption" _classes=".margin-init"

---
°FIGURE °FC Figure 1: Test Image from www.outbrain.com
  <img src="https://www.outbrain.com/techblog/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/road-sign-361513_960_720.jpg" alt="Test Image" style="width:100%">

---
/FIGURE

It might be worth mentioning in docs that you can extend the method you illustrate for Details to other cases. I'm sure there are many other examples. I'll make note of any more I come across.

[pmario]

I'd love to have a working example with an image + CSS to illustrate the flexibility

[TiddlyTweeter]

Okay. I'll do that later in the week, maybe using your colorful CSS.

[pmario]

The image you use here was blocked by "uBlock origin". It says, that the site is used to track users. I'll use 1 of my own images.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Eek sorry. I won't use it in a real example later.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Adding HTML Tags Directly? Queries...

@pmario I noticed that the method ...

»article Test text produces <article class="wltc-l1 wltc">Test text</article>

... and same with class ...

»article.class-1 Test text produces <article class="class-1 wltc-l1 wltc">Test text</article>

This is different than working through pragma definitions.

My queries ...

1. I noticed by trial and error that the method doesn't seem to support all tags? Why is that?
2. In limited cases it could be useful I think? BUT is it worth documenting?

[pmario]

My queries ...

1. I noticed by trial and error that the method doesn't seem to support all tags? Why is that?
2. In limited cases it could be useful I think? BUT is it worth documenting?

The discussion has been part of the Custom Markup (cont 3)

Elements are checked against TW HTML-block-elements ... And yes that should be documented

[pmario]

• AND I have to make a new PR, because some elements are missing in TW atm

[TiddlyTweeter]

Elements are checked against TW HTML-block-elements ... And yes that should be documented

It is very useful to see that, tx.

IF we advance the method of changing elements via, for instance »article or »section, type constructs, I really think we need to provide a full list of the available elements to prevent confusion.

[pmario]

IMO related to #76

[TiddlyTweeter]

Custom Markup Definition Is Incomplete

@pmario, I just noticed that under Pragma Schema of Custom Markup Definition that _endString=<string> is NOT defined.

[pmario]

did fix that!

[TiddlyTweeter]

Relationship With Standard WikiText: A Comment

@pmario I think your docs are very good!

One thing that is obvious is that most users of TW are NOT aware of the [WikiText].class method of applying CSS to HTML entities. I certainly wasn't aware of that until I worked with Custom Markup.

It is interesting! Powerful! And useful!

I SUGGEST we should provide a RICH example of HOW to combine standard TW WikiText markup with your Custom Markup.

What do you think?
Would you like me to do that?

[pmario]

My German edition has an example for that: https://tiddlywiki.com/languages/de-DE/index.html#Task%20Management%20mit%20Listen using list elements. ..

May be something like this may be worth documenting for tiddlywiki.com ...

So it may be work to create a PR against tiddlywiki-com branch with the basic info and link the custom-markup docs to those doc pages. ...

I think Jeremy will be happy to merge this info into the standard docs

[TiddlyTweeter]

My German edition has an example for that: https://tiddlywiki.com/languages/de-DE/index.html#Task%20Management%20mit%20Listen using list elements. ..

That is a VERY good example. Simple. Illustrates the point well.

[TiddlyTweeter]

The Debugger: A Comment

I have been using the debugger documented at Pragma Debug Options

Whoah! It is great with the "both" setting. It DOES really help!

[pmario]

The debug-options where defined especially for documentation purposes. I wanted to make it easier to do document "rules" without the need for cryptic macros.

The TW5 docs is full of them

[TiddlyTweeter]

_endString Can Be At The End Of A Line Of Text?

@pmario, messing about I found that ...

\customise degree='example' _element='fred' _endString=\END

°example test
the test\END

°example test
more test
   \END

Produces ...

<fred class="wltc-l1 wltc">test
the test</fred><fred class="wltc-l1 wltc">test
more test
   </fred>

SO, Custom Markup can make NEW elements like <fred> :-):-).

But also, more important, is that _endString does NOT need to be at the start of a line, it can have spaces before it.
AND It can be at the end of a line and also work (though NOT with spaces after it).

Yes?

[pmario]

That's right. I wanted to be able to do things like this: https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/custom-markup/#test-high-abstraction ...

Which for sure is completely useless, but it shows the level of "abstraction" that can be reached. ... That was the reason, why I did remove the rule: "_endString needs to begin at the start of the line"

[pmario]

SO, Custom Markup can make NEW elements like :-):-).

Yes. That's a "byproduct" that can be useful, if we ever get browser defined custom elements in TW

[TiddlyTweeter]

That's right. I wanted to be able to do things like this: https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/custom-markup/#test-high-abstraction ...

Which for sure is completely useless, but it shows the level of "abstraction" that can be reached. ... That was the reason, why I did remove the rule: "_endString needs to begin at the start of the line"

Whoa! Far out! Very interesting!

[TiddlyTweeter]

Scope Remains Same On Element Change. It Is Vital To Document This Clearly

I think it is important that the docs make VERY clear that scope matching (\n or \n\n) is PERSISTENT.
The table we are making, at the start of this thread will help with that.

BUT users who change the element, either through \customise or through simply appending the tag name to a markup glyph, ALSO need to understand that the scope is NOT changed. This has big implications for the intended result.

I am guessing, but many users will likely very quickly start using the custom _endString method when marking up anything other than very simple text blocks?? Yes?

[pmario]

I am guessing, but many users will likely very quickly start using the custom _endString method when marking up anything other than very simple text blocks?? Yes?

yes. The initial new-line end is there to make it work with the glyph only definitions

[TiddlyTweeter]

Simple Example Of Two Markers On One Line

@pmario, further to our discussion at #62 (comment), a very simple example is to open a tag and place a header tag immediately following. For instance ...

\customize degree='START' _endString='/END' _element='div' _mode=block _classes='.poem-strict' 
\\
\customize tick='TH2'_element='h2' 
°START ´TH2 An Heading

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
   Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
   And the mome raths outgrabe.
/END

Produces ...

<div class="poem-strict wltc-l1"><h2 class="wltc-l1 wltc">An Heading</h2><p>'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
   Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
   And the mome raths outgrabe.
</p></div>

What we really also need is in docs to have a rule-set that explains the logic. For instance the FIRST tag needs to be set to _mode=block and so on. Custom Markup is rich but deriving very clear depiction of the "rules of use" takes time. Your existing docs are very good, but I hope we can also end up with a compact one tiddler summary/crib sheet by the time we finish?

[TiddlyTweeter]

_mode="inline" and _endString="[set]" - An Interesting Case

@pmario Through trial and error I discovered that defining a custom _endString but leaving the mode as inline produces an interesting effect. An effect that in some special use cases may be useful!

1 - Here is an example with _mode="block" ...

\customize degree='POEM' _mode='block' _endString='/POEM' _element='div' _classes='.poem-strict' 
\\
\customize tick='TH2'_element='h2' _classes='.poem-title' 

°POEM 

´TH2 Jabberwocky

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
   Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
   And the mome raths outgrabe.

/POEM

The HTML renders as ...

<div class="poem-strict wltc-l1"><h2 class="poem-title wltc-l1 wltc">Jabberwocky</h2><p>'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
   Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
   And the mome raths outgrabe.</p></div>

2 - Here is the HTML render of the example with the mode set to: _mode="inline" ...

<div class="poem-strict wltc-l1 _wltc">_

´TH2 Jabberwocky

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
   Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
   And the mome raths outgrabe.

</div>

The enclosing block ("inline") suppresses ALL WikiText or Custom Markup at the start of the line.

Actually for some use cases this behaviour is USEFUL! It is, for instance, good for the layout of poems. Suppressing the normal behaviour of TW to liberally insert <p> tags, which are totally switched off.

I also found it useful whilst debugging more complex text documents to see the basic result in render of containing elements, this makes easier.

My QUESTIONS for you ...

1. Though it looks a bit mad, it is NOT an issue using Custom Markup this way is it?
2. Do we need to document this behaviour when using _mode="inline" and _endString="[set]"? I think it will inevitably happen that users will stumble upon the behaviour. It could be VERY confusing if they don't know about it?

Your thoughts?

[pmario]

Though it looks a bit mad, it is NOT an issue using Custom Markup this way is it?

As you point out. It's an edge case. Same as eg:

This text starts a block //this starts inline

! this heading is eaten by inline mode

//

That's exactly the behaviour you see. It's similar confusing as the usecase you describe but the current TW parser works that way and sometimes produces unexpected results.

[pmario]

We should document this behaviour. May be using the same example as I used here

[TiddlyTweeter]

@pmario We should document this behaviour. May be using the same example as I used here

I agree fully.

In experiments I found that WikiText will often take [WikiText].class but it is INCONSISTENT.

For instance the hard-rule --- does NOT seem to take classes. That I don't understand!

[TiddlyTweeter]

Editor Tools - No. Of Buttons & No. Of Keyboard Shortcuts

Buttons
As I have worked with Custom Markup over the weeks I found I really don't need EIGHT buttons. TWO seems enough. The button for toggle-glyph and the dropdown to choose glyph are enough for my needs. Sure, its a personal preference but I suspect one that might be quite close to wider user preferences too?

This is maybe something to ask more widely about in any future beta?

Keyboard Shortcuts
Works fine with the ONE dedicated shortcut [ctrl+9] you change via choose glyph. BUT, I think, long-term I would want more shortcuts. Ideally one per glyph, though just TWO glyphs (each with the shift undo toggle, so FOUR shortcuts in total) might actually work almost as well.

I did look into making more keyboard shortcuts myself, but, TBH, I really don't yet fully understand how to make keyboard shortcuts. So, it will have to wait.

[pmario]

You are right. Some buttons are completely obsolete and will be removed from the final version. I only kept them, because: "Who knows". ...

I did look into making more keyboard shortcuts myself, but, TBH, I really don't yet fully understand how to make keyboard shortcuts. So, it will have to wait.

The problem atm is, that editor-shortcuts are bound to buttons. So if the button is hidden, the shortcut is gone. We may need to discuss this with Jeremy.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Editor Tools - Observations On Insertion Behaviours

These are minor points. And they are really just for your information rather than me expecting you to fix anything.

1. If you place the cursor at the very top line of a Tiddler where that line is just \n and insert a glyph, two glyphs get inserted with a blank line before them. The result ...

° 
° 
Test line 2 (Line 1 is simply "\n")

2. The choose glyph drop-down is an impressive & sophisticated tool that does a lot! The only issue I had with it is I could not work out what the checkbox for Use all lines? is supposed to do! @pmario are there any docs on what it does yet?

[pmario]

1. is a bug

2. In normal cases the toggle only works in lines, where there is text already. So you can mark eg: 5 lines, click toggle and get a glyph at every line, except empty lines

If "Use all lines" is checked the glyph will also be set to empty lines. That's a feature, that Tony wanted

[TiddlyTweeter]

@pmario If "Use all lines" is checked the glyph will also be set to empty lines. That's a feature, that Tony wanted

Ah! Now I remember!

[pmario]

see: #77

[TiddlyTweeter]

"Redefining" (kind of) Default Glyph Behaviour?

Again, by trial and error, I discovered that I can "re-define" (for practical purposes) basic glyph behaviour and build a very minimal system for markup. For instance redfining tick, ´ , as a custom <hr> ...

\customize tick _element=hr

<style>
hr {width:50%;border-top:0;color:gray;}
</style>

´ 

In TW this gives a thin hard-rule that is half-width, lightweight and centred.

The ability to "redefine" the behaviour of base glyphs is VERY useful for applications where you have a limited set of Markup that is needed. For instance in Screenplay writing there are only 5 types of components you ever need for the main work.

QUESTIONS for @pmario ...

1. This is allowed? :-)
2. Should it be documented?

[pmario]

1. yes ... everything is allowed, if it is possible. ... Except if it is a bug, that needs to be fixed. But this example is really nice.
2. Yes

I did copy it over as a "test-centered-hr" ... So we don't break it anymore

[pmario]

The ability to "redefine" the behaviour of base glyphs is VERY useful for applications where you have a limited set of Markup that is needed. For instance in Screenplay writing there are only 5 types of components you ever need for the main work.

I think Jeremy did make some commits, that will make it easier to define "custom wikitext" using javascript and new tiddler-types. ... I didn't test the code yet, but here is a link The text is rather cryptic, so I have to have a closer look, which will need more time

[TiddlyTweeter]

@pmario I had a look. I understood the intent message. But code I can't read.

[pmario]

I think the reason (may be 1 of them) was, that we get more and more posts at GG that are like: "XXX doesn't work with markdown" and so on. ... but that's a completely different thing

[TiddlyTweeter]

I think the reason (may be 1 of them) was, that we get more and more posts at GG that are like: "XXX doesn't work with markdown" and so on. ... but that's a completely different thing

It is actually an interesting issue, I think. Markdown became a kind of standard. But it NEVER really became one that you could say was "compliant". What I mean is that much of the complaints about TW markup are, as the British say, "A storm in a teacup", meaning it is TRIVIAL problem.

IMO TW definitely could, pretty-easily, on export, provide most Every Markdown Flavor invented. All we'd need is someone who likes that kind of slightly anal issue to do it. :-).

[pmario]

see: #78

[TiddlyTweeter]

An Experiment In Shorthand Link Insertion...

For fun, @pmario, I thought this might interest you...?

\customise degree=TW _element=a _classes="goto-tw" title='Go to tiddlywiki.com' href='https://tiddlywiki.com' target="_blank"

<style>a.goto-tw::after {content: "TiddlyWiki";}</style>

°TW

Obviously in real use this would be better as /°TW °/. But I'm looking hopefully ahead! :-)

[pmario]

uups: Docs is missing

\customise slash=TW _element=a _classes="goto-tw" title='Go to tiddlywiki.com' href='https://tiddlywiki.com' target="_blank"

<style>a.goto-tw::after {content: "TiddlyWiki";}</style>

/°TW test°/

Does the job already. There will be no customizeinline the inline version will / should have the same "superpowers" as the block version has. ... This should be already part of the code.

[TiddlyTweeter]

@pmario: There will be no customizeinline the inline version will / should have the same "superpowers" as the block version has. ... This should be already part of the code.

Okay! Sounds good. I will test!

[TiddlyTweeter]

Comments: Macro Usage Under Custom Markup

@pmario the use of macros under Custom Markup is very interesting.
It gives a method (not yet perfect?) to invoke any macro AS purely part of markup.

I have been experimenting using it with Mohammad's Shiraz macros to good effect.

My point? It can be used to SIMPLIFY "end-user experience" by pre-configuring common tasks under ONE in-text-flow SYNTAX.

I think what we may need are "output wikis" demonstrating the advantages?

Best, TT

[pmario]

I did think in a similar way, as I used Mohammad's CSS-bits for testing with CM

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao @pmario :-)

I thought you might find this AMUSING :-) ...

FWIW, I use Custom Markup now in a production wiki for teaching English - to dynamically control its widths settings ...

[pmario]

amused ... I'll change the glyph name "almost" to "approx" as described in issue #73 with the next version ...

I'm also having a closer look at the "_params" parsing mechanism as discussed. see: #74 ... BUT

I don't like the "pipe" | separator. It has a really bad readability. If you have a better idea, post it at #74

[pmario]

Looks really cool!

[TiddlyTweeter]

@pmario Looks really cool!

That is mainly because CM helps me achieve the kind of design MINIMALISM that I actually really want and am quite good at.

IN-Tiddler CSS design is just as important, if not more important, than interface blocks. CM enables that easily. It is a huge benefit.

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

@pmario I don't like the "pipe" | separator. It has a really bad readability. If you have a better idea, post it at #74

I agree. It (pipe / |) is NOT ideal VISUALLY.

The issue, for me, is figuring out WHAT "will never be used as part of the input string?"

I'll sleep on it.

TT

[pmario]

see: https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/custom-markup/#test-params-p2-6colons:test-params-p2-6colons%20test-params-with-https%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%20%5B%5BCustom%20Markup%20Definition%5D%5D

[pmario]

@AnthonyMuscio wrote

Mario I understand where wltc comes from, and I expect it roles of your tongue (if not mine) but to assist learning perhaps a cm- for "custom mark-up" would be easier to use, Otherwise please put you brand everywhere you want except perhaps if it complicates code.

wltc- is not a branding thing.

TW uses tc- for tiddlywiki-classes. tv- for variables and so on. ...

Plugin authors should try to reuse those elements if the fit 100%. If not, they need a new name.

I personally think, that plugin authors are not allowed to create new tc- names, because it may clash with TW future development.

That's why I'm using wltc- for all of my plugins, themes and editions. I'm using wltv- for new variables, if no tv- exists.

Over time it may be possible to normalize my values and create a single file, that can be included into every project and hopefully it will just work

[AnthonyMuscio]

Thanks @pmario

[pmario]

@AnthonyMuscio wrote:

If I try and set some simple use cases, rather than the advanced ones I put forward earlier, I find I cant do what I want. Perhaps there are some oversights, or these have being lost over time, I also suspect Mario's fondness of inserting blank lines eg <lf><lf> is leaving some of the Advances I expected behind.

I don't think so. Evolving the project I did always keep the initial goal in mind. "Copy pasting" long text with "single lf" is still possible and can be "batch processed".

For your purpose you can use tick (´), single (›), degree (°)

1: CTRL - A ... mark all lines.
2..4: see image.

At the moment it seems hard to grasp the systemic patterns, making it even harder for me to provide a clear definition of what is not working for be as I also have systematic concepts I am trying to share.

• The glyphs, that have 1 line only work with 1 <lf> seen above: tick, single and degree
• The glyps with 2 lines work with 2 <lf> as default _endString angle (»), approx (≈), pilcrow (¶)

IMO that should be simple to remember. ... At least it was intended that way ;)

What systemic patterns?

• why use one glyph over another?

Because we can! ... Just joking. ... It mainly depends on user keyboard layout. IMO different users in different countries may have different favourites. Probably the ones, that are part of their keyboard layout.

• must one have a blank line before a glyph(ed line) including subsequent ones?

no. see the example above.

• what about simply adding an existing class to a line with no other manipulations or dependencies and honouring the LF

see the example.

• which respond to LF rather than LF/LF? (The above table helps but not for » and ≈

1 vs 2 lines .. you know ;)

[AnthonyMuscio]

TT,

Thanks for helping clarify the issue further.

I have come to realise I have a few key desires to satisfy from CM

• To quickly edit incoming text to look good and presentable - ideally without lots of repetitive edits (No extra blank lines needed just prefix lines with glyph/symbol)
• To create wiki mark-up to support rapid note taking - effectively support a mark-up shorthand, enter a paragraph or list and define with a select and click (keyboard or pop-up access to glyphs)
• To support an author to write and present content using a range of elements with reusable mark-up - asides, info boxes, quotes, etc... through a powerful mark-up however designed to require the minimum of memory and parameters (Canned mark-up)
• Solve tiddlywiki issues, problems and limitations by employing smart custom mark-up to to achieve things no one thought possible.

Regards
Tony

[AnthonyMuscio]

@pmario On the \n and \n\n settings rather than hard coded could it be changed or set with the _endString accepting these as "keywords" so they can be changed as needed? _endString currently allows an almost limitless set of strings to be used as an end string, I love this fact, but It would be nice if this string would accept the special character encoding, at least \n and \n\n versions but perhaps \t and other special characters may provide further opportunities. An example may be, terminate with the end string \n\keyword\n note \k (is undefined and ignored just uses \ .

[AnthonyMuscio]

@pmario I understand how solving problems is easier for you and;

hihi, ... Yea, polishing it, so it is useful for others, is where the "hard and time consuming work" starts ;)

I see this as where you rely on TT and I. It may however seem frustrating to start with apparently Naive questions coming from me, the best way to understand where I am coming from is to consider me as a slow learner however once I have learned something I know it better than most because I am a systematic and conceptual learner, and thus able to communicate to users well. To help be please give systematic not simply specific answers.

In some ways this means some the "problems" I expose will be systemic or consistency issues.

Tony

[pmario]

... An example may be, terminate with the end string \n\keyword\n note \k (is undefined and ignored just uses \ .

Have to have a closer look

[pmario]

see: #95

[TiddlyTweeter]

Query Regarding Documentation

@pmario I am actively trying to document my examples.

I struck me that with Custom Markup we might take the documentation and CSS that Jeremy Ruston developed for TiddlyWiki.com and use it under a CM version?

Question: Is there anyplace I can get the set of TW Documentation macros & their supporting CSS?

[pmario]

One point for me to create CM was, to have an easy way to get rid of most of the docs macros. Eg: the "copy to clipboard" atm has really ugly plain text

So I'll try to replicate them. I'll let you know

[AnthonyMuscio]

@TiddlyTweeter
Are you looking in the core plugin TW5.com Docs: Documentation from tiddlywiki.com

In addition to actual documentation tiddlers it has the supporting macros and CSS from Memory.

@pmario
easy way to get rid of most of the docs macros

This is a good idea. Much simpler equivalents to the documentation macros, or at least the macros hidden behind Custom mark-up could increase contributions to the documentation.

Tony

[TiddlyTweeter]

@AnthonyMuscio Are you looking in the core plugin TW5.com Docs: Documentation from tiddlywiki.com

No longer - as @pmario basically has an iron-in-the-fire to simplify it. :-) It is not urgent for me, I can wait.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Queries Regarding My Examples ...

@pmario I, more or less, have a set of examples ready. But, before I upload them, I have a question (Q) & issues (I) ...

1. • Q: Should I put them in a clone of your TW for Custom Markup OR are you happy I just upload my own wikis?
2. • I: The isssue with (1) is some of the examples have a lot of dependencies, which could be confusing for you to have to deal with!
3. • I: Also I haven't fully tested yet the CSS compliance of my examples with your styling.
4. • I: I seriously feel the need to document them better but I haven't worked out a concise way to do it yet.

My feeling is to try get you something today, if possible, so you at least have a few additional examples?
For THAT answering (1) is most important.
TT

[pmario]

You can upload your own wikis. My wiki is created with node. ... I don't have a problem if there are dependencies. It's interesting to see, how a workflow will look like with CM

[TiddlyTweeter]

Comment: Consequences Of "INTEGRATION"

@pmario Because I'm using Custom Markup a LOT, it is becoming clear to me that its full use leads to, sort-of, "bespoke editions".

What I mean is that, IF you use it extensively, you also really need to commit to some methodology to place/name dependent Tiddlers in a consistent way. In my case I have 3 wikis using it :-).

BUT now I need to try to bring all three into some sort of consistent methodology on PRAGMA GlyphNAME and also CSS placement and use!

Why? So that I can easily clone component sets between wikis.

Just a comment, TT

[pmario]

Yea ... I thought, that this can happen, You did create a DSL "domains specific language", that fits your needs.

This process will need several iterations. You have 3 wikis, where the "last" one will probably contain the most advanced version of your DSL.

The good thing of a DSL is, that it can do some things better than the default wikitext.... The disadvantage is: It needs its own documentation :) ... And may be a different workflow, to distribute it.

[AnthonyMuscio]

Can we not introduce some standard tiddlers for pragma ands styling to use with custom mark-up?

The vast majority of users will adopt these by default, then others can find it when reviewing the application of custom mark-up, If people step away from these standards they can consider the consequences.

Tony

[TiddlyTweeter]

WHAT Is The Best Public Approach?

@AnthonyMuscio Can we not introduce some standard tiddlers for pragma ands styling to use with custom mark-up?

@pmario, I think has done that already in the sense of smart demos of applying classes. But I do agree that essentially the PRESENTATION of Custom Markup could be either ...

A replete system of element, .dotclass or glyph:ID PRE-DEFINED examples ...

... or a ...

BARE system that is aimed at "Markup Developers" who are interested in developing DSL that end-users do NOT need to understand at all. In this approach the illustration of integration with MACROS becomes more important.

The sheer richness of Custom Markup means I cannot give an opinion on this.

It is very much @pmario's decision.

[AnthonyMuscio]

I would hope we can present users with a bare bones DSL based on our knowledge of CM possibilities to assist new users and adoption.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Examples: No. 1

@pmario This wiki is a copy of a real production wiki for Advanced English that is already actively used. Advanced English

I give three examples for CM. The example at Many Online Dictionaries is very complex.
But actually very useful.

In all the examples CM is used to (1) dynamically alter styles and classes; OR (2) dynamically construct <a> links .

BASIC stuff. But I think good examples?

[TiddlyTweeter]

Just found your DoReMi tiddler: I like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRmWSrAzmIc

Ha! Just FYI, OT, at Advanced Level of English I have found that songs and poems really help advanced learners. Partly because of rhythm, partly because the use of "idioms" is high.

Real English usage is very idiomatic.

The link is good. I may include it.
Tx

[TiddlyTweeter]

@pmario IMO pragmas isn't the right term here. ... A pragma in TW sense is something very special. A pragma gives the user access to control the "parsing behaviour" ...

/°Lw xxx°/ is "custom" wikitext, that will be rendered to html outptut. IMO it's a custom inline wikitext rule or simpler a inline rule

Understood! I'll write it differently in future.

But I am quite happy you change the existing wording for WikiLabs CM as much as you need!
TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

I should have mentioned the BUNDLE at https://tidbits.wiki/lab/cm/ae.html#%24%3A%2Ftt%2Fse%2Fdic%2Flink.bun that contains all the needed tiddlers for the advanced search of data dictionaries.

[pmario]

@TiddlyTweeter For your .poem-strict class you use 1.2rem font-size. I would suggest to increase the line-height too.
The default l-h is 22px. I'd go up a bit, to increase readability. eg:

div.poem-strict {
...
    font-size: 1.2rem;
    line-height: 1.6rem;
}

[TiddlyTweeter]

For your .poem-strict class you use 1.2rem font-size. I would suggest to increase the line-height too.
The default l-h is 22px. I'd go up a bit, to increase readability.

Ha! Many thanks! Useful comment.

FWIW I need to revise the CSS for optimal responsive use on smart phones. Once it is working well I'll update the example wiki too.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Examples: No. 2

@pmario this is a wiki of a few "tech" examples (i.e. to aid technical documentation) that I ported from more complex wikis.

I include ...

• my attempt at documenting Markup Defaults
• the Console Emulation I think is very interesting on parameter passing
• the extended example for WikiLab Resources Linking that I think is useful to see
• my conversion of HTML-5 inline tags to a CM usable form, some with parameter passing. They are suggestive of the scope of CM ...

Hope they help!

[TiddlyTweeter]

Examples: No. 3 - On HOLD

@pmario I have more examples that mainly relate to PRINT support. Also some specialist uses of IFRAME.
My feeling is they are too difficult for inclusion at this stage.

I'm hoping that my examples in No. 1 & No. 2 are enough for the moment?

Yes?

[TiddlyTweeter]

Comment: New CM "Snippet / Stamp" Tools are great

I'm appreciating the snippet tools. I actually use snippet tools also as a "quick-reference" to markup in the editor. Here, for example, is something I put together quickly for "inline" markup ... It uses CM markup in the "caption" field of the snippets to show what each snippet does ...

[pmario]

Yea, I knew, that there may be long lists. .. I'm thinking about a possibility to group different snippets. I'm thinking about a namespace, that creates a "tree-like" structure ... BUT I'm not sure yet.

What do you think?

[TiddlyTweeter]

Yea, I knew, that there may be long lists. .. I'm thinking about a possibility to group different snippets. I'm thinking about a namespace, that creates a "tree-like" structure ... BUT I'm not sure yet.

What do you think?

I think it is a VERY good idea!

I have always used the "Stamp" tool BUT always give up with it after a while because the list gets so long it becomes unworkable. I'd also like to organise snippets more easily. Any kind of sectioning (just being able to group would be a huge improvement) or even better, cascading sub-trees would be great for my use cases.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Comment: Being Able to Style the Snippets Menu in CM is ADDED VALUE ...

Just an update to illustrate that the new class wrapper .wltc-snippet-inline works well ... my snippets now look like I want.
It is a small, yet significant, change. Many thanks!

[AnthonyMuscio]

Maybe this is where a smart sidebar tab could help authors lookup and or select CM for use in text. Clicking the drop-down does take us away from the content

[TiddlyTweeter]

Is There A List Somewhere Of ALL HTML Tags Supported Under CM?

The latest version is great for supporting the render of any Glyph+HTML tagname, whether "inline" or "block"!!

For myself, I want to create a reference table on available tags.
To do that I need to be sure what all the possible tags supported are.

@pmario, is there some place I can get a full list of them?

TT

[pmario]

CM inline list is: https://github.com/wikilabs/plugins/blob/master/wikilabs/custom-markup/tiddlers/system/cm-inline-elements.js#L15

TW block list is: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/b38a0b77c72a96922e6963da3e6c5aee030c23da/core/modules/config.js#L37

There is an open PR: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5469/files which you may want to +1

[pmario]

If there are some elements, that don't make sense at all, please tell me and I'll remove them. I did remove script for security reasons and some others

[TiddlyTweeter]

Thanks for the lists!

If there are some elements, that don't make sense at all, please tell me and I'll remove them. I did remove script for security reasons and some others

Will do.

[TiddlyTweeter]

If there are some elements, that don't make sense at all, please tell me and I'll remove them. I did remove script for security reasons and some others

These three on the CM List tt, acronym, big I don't think are needed? They date back to HTML 4 and more semantic alternatives are now used instead?

[TiddlyTweeter]

CM inline list is: https://github.com/wikilabs/plugins/blob/master/wikilabs/custom-markup/tiddlers/system/cm-inline-elements.js#L15

TW block list is: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/b38a0b77c72a96922e6963da3e6c5aee030c23da/core/modules/config.js#L37

In looking at them from my point of view, i.e. to be able to append them directly to a Glyph, it is not particularly important to include any tag that needs attributes (e.g. <source src="horse.ogg" type="audio/ogg">) since you'd have to make it through a full CM rule anyway.

There is an open PR: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5469/files which you may want to +1

I did.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Comment: Language For Describing How Custom Markup Works

Just MO but I think we maybe need develop a few concepts for describing the full range of CM behaviors?

Once you start using macros in \customise you can make very complex "constructs".

For instance the "blockquote" examples redefine blockquote and ADDs "cite" and, optionally, blockquote tag attributes.
That is NOT just redefining a tag.
It is creating a whole "construct" of more than one tag.
That gives CM huge scope.

@pmario I'm just wondering if we can develop a language/concepts for describing such behavior that somehow better captures the different ways that CM can work???

Just a thought, TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

Further to my last ... In expressing it to myself we HAVE at least ...

• TAG REASSIGNMENT (TRT) from TEXT ... e.g. °abbr text

• TAG REASSIGNMENT (TRP) from RULE/PRAGMA ... e.g. °AB text

• TAG REASSIGNMENT WITH CLASSES (TRTC) from TEXT ... e.g. °abbr.class text

• TAG REASSIGNMENT WITH CLASSES (TRPC) with RULE/PRAGMA ... e.g. °AB.class text

• CM COMPLEX RULE/PRAGMA (CRWM) with MACRO ... e.g. °AB:"pass_1":"pass_2" text

I do NOT think I have the right language here! BUT do think it illustrates the need for it! :-)
TT

[pmario]

... BUT do think it illustrates the need for it! :-)

yes

I do NOT think I have the right language here!

I did understand it, but we need to think about that. ... May be MDN can help us: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element

[pmario]

Or the spec itself: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/sections.html#the-address-element

[TiddlyTweeter]

Possible Example Of 4 Params Use For Precise Hard-Rules

@pmario I am currently working on using CM to fashion "intelligent hard-rules". I studied an example you pointed to at MDN and expanded it slightly via a macro that uses all 4 _params + src.

Let me know if you want me to document it for your examples of use ... It currently looks like this ...

[pmario]

I actually don't want to document _3 and _4. They should be there, if someone doesn't have enough with _1, _2 plus srcName.

You can provide some use-cases for _1 and _2 if you want

[TiddlyTweeter]

You can provide some use-cases for _1 and _2 if you want

Okay. Most my use cases are about text-sectioning for writing at the moment.
If one of them looks suitable I'll write it up.

[pmario]

I personally love those examples. .. I do learn a lot from your requests. eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleuron_(typography) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterism_(typography)

All those glyphs do make sense for custom-markup ... Because they have been designed for that exact purpose. .. I didn't know that!

[TiddlyTweeter]

Possible Example of Simple "HEDERA" Insertion Into Paragraphs

"Hedera" are traditional "pauses" in print media. In this example the \customise ONLY use stylesheets to insert the Hedera. No macro needed. Let me know if you'd like me to document it ...

[pmario]

I've never heard of a "hedera", but I like it ;)

[TiddlyTweeter]

I've never heard of a "hedera", but I like it ;)

:-) see Punctuation Graveyard for a quick overview ...